<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1527</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/18/99 1:13:55 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 18 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1527<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
Re: Mistranslating the Ten Commandments (was Re: Silly Traveller)<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: Ethnicity<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
Re: Marooned (MegaT)<BR>
Re: Ethnicity<BR>
Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
Re: silly traveller<BR>
Re: OT?: Sliders (was Re: Ethnic Confusions)<BR>
Re: OT Suggestions<BR>
Re: Mistranslating the Ten Commandments (was Re: Silly Traveller)<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
Re: Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
Re: OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:25:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
> Subject: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
>>> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
>>> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
>>> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
><BR>
> On 12/18/1999 04:30, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Picture a Senate with around 20 new members who would consider<BR>
>> Teddy Kennedy to be right wing :) The Republican Party would have<BR>
>> to be utterly brain-dead to risk losing that chamber for a couple<BR>
>> of generations at least.<BR>
>> <BR>
> Not only that, we'd have a true multiparty chamber too that would run the<BR>
> entire spectrum...Republicans, Democrats, Tories, Liberals and Reform...even<BR>
> Ross Pee-rot would actually have a party to go to!<BR>
><BR>
> Can you think of something that'll drive the voters here more nuts than<BR>
> that? <BR>
<BR>
Some of us would *welcome*. It gets *really* old having a "choice"<BR>
between two parties both of whom have platforms you can't support.<BR>
Usually because half of each is *against things you are for, and the<BR>
other half is *for* things you are against.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:41:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Does this mean that it is now legal for me to:<BR>
<BR>
> 5) Missiles are allowed as much accelleration as you wish to build into them<BR>
<BR>
Heck, *ships* are allowed that in most versions of the rules. They tend<BR>
not to go above the g-comp limits because for anything much bigger than<BR>
a fighter, running at more than the g-comp limit is going to make<BR>
operating the ship a *real* pain.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:46:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mistranslating the Ten Commandments (was Re: Silly Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Also, elsewhere in the TNK, "Suffer not a witch to live" should<BR>
> have read "poisoner" for "witch".<BR>
<BR>
Urban legend. Much as members of the Wiccan community would like that<BR>
to be true, it isn't. However, the type of "magic practioner"<BR>
translated as "witch" wasn't much like we'd consider a "witch". <BR>
<BR>
For more details, as an open minded Bible scholar.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:28:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: would the Koran, Torah and King James Bible be recognizable in 5700 <BR>
> AD?<BR>
<BR>
The Koran will almost certainly be recognizable, and in fact,<BR>
unchanged. Mohammed had seen the strife that differing interpretations<BR>
and translations caused in the Christian world. So the Koran isn't<BR>
"supposed" to be translated.<BR>
<BR>
In actuality, it does get translated to allow for more converts. But<BR>
the translations are not considered the "real" Koran. Instead, if<BR>
there's a question about what a passage means, you have to examine the<BR>
original Arabic text (which is unchanged and likely to remain so). This<BR>
also keeps Arabic alive as a language. <BR>
<BR>
The Torah is unlikely to change, for similar reasons. The<BR>
*commentaries* are likely to be more extensive, but it's doubtful that<BR>
the actual Torah would change. <BR>
<BR>
The KJV Bible *can't* change, because "KJV" refers to a *specific*<BR>
edition/translation. But there are *lots* of translations of the Bible.<BR>
And they are rather more likely to *converge than diverge, barring new<BR>
archeological discoveries. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand:<BR>
<BR>
The interpretations of the Bible will continue to diverge. Islam may<BR>
acquire a few more branches. Judaism probably won't. And both<BR>
Christianity and Islam will generate *more* "daughter religions". <BR>
<BR>
Examples of "daughter" religions:<BR>
<BR>
Judaism -> Christianity, Islam<BR>
Christianity -> Islam, "Mormons"<BR>
Islam -> Ba'hai(sp?)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:22:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Unless sometime in the 21st century, the Parti Quebecois actually<BR>
>> succeeds in their separation referendum. The Maritimes, cut off from<BR>
>> the rest of Canada and with a terrible economic situation, petition<BR>
>> to join the USA, as do the western provinces....<BR>
<BR>
> I can understand the Maritimes petitioning to join the USA, beign cut off<BR>
> and with a terrible economic situation, but the western provinces? With<BR>
> an economy as strong as ours, I don't see why we would want to join the<BR>
> USA. I can see the west going it alone before I can see it joining the US.<BR>
> (No offence to those of you already *in* the US...)<BR>
<BR>
How about them letting the northwestern portion of the US join *them*? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:10:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnicity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> My take on races, and please, someone who is knowledgeable in genetics<BR>
> please correct me if I am wrong, is that there is only one human race and<BR>
> that the various branches of it are merely human adaptations to climate.<BR>
<BR>
Yes and no. Some "racial characteristics" are just plain "random<BR>
changes" that spread through a population because they didn't *hurt*<BR>
anything. <BR>
<BR>
> Ergo, it follows that if MY ancestors were born in Africa, I too would be<BR>
> black and not white as I am today.  I also think that in a few millennia,<BR>
> the people who are black and always living in the northern, colder climates,<BR>
> will eventually breed light-skinned people, unless they keep re-infusing<BR>
> their gene pools from other blacks migrating north.<BR>
<BR>
It'll take more than a "few millenia". Remember, what matters is the<BR>
number of *generations*. 4000 years is *only* 160 generations. Since we<BR>
are *not* deliberately breeding for characteristics, it'll take<BR>
*thousands* of generations to see noticable changes. Say 25k years<BR>
*minimum*.<BR>
<BR>
Then consider that since we developed technology, we tend to adapt<BR>
environments to us, instead of the other way around. That *greatly*<BR>
reduces selection pressure.<BR>
<BR>
> In essence, to my way of thinking, this invalidates 'racism' and 'hate<BR>
> crimes' attached to it because we are all one human race.<BR>
<BR>
One species yes. Possibly multiple races.<BR>
<BR>
One interesting possibility is that some of the races of humaniti in<BR>
the imperium have "drifted" far enough that they are incapable of<BR>
producing fertile offspring with some other races. <BR>
<BR>
So, say for example, Solomani and Vilani can produce viable offspring,<BR>
and Zhodani and Vilani can also, but Solomani and Zhodani *can't*. <BR>
<BR>
That would be *definite* proff that we are dealing with one species,<BR>
but different races (sub-species), and also that we are approaching the<BR>
point of speciation, if the populations remain (essentially) isolated<BR>
for some more generations (lots more).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:55:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 12/17/99 4:45:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, rancke@diku.dk <BR>
> writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << or possibly the 7<BR>
>  Wonders of the Domain of Deneb? >><BR>
><BR>
> the Grav cities of Vincennes?<BR>
<BR>
Assuming you "borrow" a few famous planets from well known SF:<BR>
<BR>
Mesklin: Since personal computers got powerful enough, Hal Clement was<BR>
         able to simulate it himself, and found that the planet is<BR>
         *not* an oblate spheriod. It's closer to a discus shape(!).<BR>
         And while the equatorial gravity remain 3g, polar gravity<BR>
         drops to a "mere" 250g.  And the rotational period ("day")<BR>
         remains at 17.8 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
I advise caution in adding this planet to your universe. While the<BR>
natives are low TL when first contacted, they learn well. And do you<BR>
*really* want whatever power "owns" Mesklin to be able to field fighter<BR>
pilots who think 250g is "a bit heavy".  <BR>
<BR>
The one bright spot is that Mesklinite reaction times are *not*<BR>
superhuman. Just their g-tolerance.<BR>
<BR>
Rocheworld: The most spectacular known "double planet". Two earth-sized<BR>
            worlds of almost equal size/mass revolving about a common<BR>
            center, just barely outside each other's Roche limit. They<BR>
            are so close that they shar a common atmosphere. And once a<BR>
            year, there is a "waterfall" from one to the other.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody else have some planets that are interesting as *planets*?<BR>
<BR>
Note: don't bother trying to use Alan Dean Foster's "Moth". Planetary<BR>
ring systems can do a lot of neat things, but not *that*!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:27:13 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 01:24 PM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> > So what you're saying is that it was really the Arc of the Covenant?<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> <BR>
>> SPLOORT! <SNORK> Oh damn, hot coffee _hurts_ going out that <BR>
>>orifrice!!!<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, I simply couldn't resist! ;)<BR>
><BR>
        Go ohm with the puns already....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
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	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:42:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Dec 99, at 11:00, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, the flip side of this is that had he been arrested for threatening<BR>
> people with a firearm, the whole thing would have been stopped as well,<BR>
> before anyone was hurt, and without the vast political consequences.<BR>
> <BR>
> Unless laws are very different in Australia, what he did is assault with a<BR>
> deadly weapon, or as a lesser crime, brandishing a weapon, certainly a<BR>
> prosecutable offense.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC he was grabbed, but as he was mentally disturbed he was put into <BR>
the mental health system, that then released him (proably from lack of <BR>
money). It seems to be a trend to do this, and then blame the results <BR>
on the guns, not the lack of mental health funding. Certainly here in <BR>
NZ we've been having an upsurge of disturbed people being shot by the <BR>
police (though the police have also been taking a more aggresive <BR>
attitude) because they've been thrown out of the system.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:42:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Marooned (MegaT)<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Dec 99, at 23:44, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As one of those lefties myself, this question has particular relevance to<BR>
> me. Another problem you missed is the safety/selector switch and the<BR>
> magazine release (these are generally designed for right handers too).<BR>
> Most modern military rifles either can be changed for either left or right<BR>
> handed firing (such as the Steyr AUG) or come in left and right handed<BR>
> versions (such as the Enfield L64). But it really is a problem. Back when<BR>
> I was trained I used either a FN-FAL or a Sterling SMG, neither of which<BR>
> is leftie friendly. It was a real pain, I even resorted to firing the<BR>
> Sterling upsidedown on occasion!<BR>
<BR>
Most modern pistols have safetys that are ambidextrous, by having the <BR>
lever on both sides. I found the M16A1 to be quite leftie friendly, in <BR>
fact some of the layout seems to make more sense for a left handed <BR>
shooter than for a right.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:42:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnicity<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Dec 99, at 10:18, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Supporting your argument was a recent article purporting that true natural<BR>
> blondes will someday become extinct.  It has to do with dominant genes.<BR>
> The only blondes you will see a few hundred years from now will be a<BR>
> select few "purebreds" or those whose DNA has been altered at birth.<BR>
<BR>
Personally I doubt this because you'd get blonde children from non-<BR>
blonde parents that are carrying the recessive blond gene. If this <BR>
extinction of blondes was true we should have lost blue eyes everywhere <BR>
that there are brown eyed people, like England and France.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:55:00 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> >> > So what you're saying is that it was really the Arc of the Covenant?<BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> SPLOORT! <SNORK> Oh damn, hot coffee _hurts_ going out that<BR>
> >>orifrice!!!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Sorry, I simply couldn't resist! ;)<BR>
> ><BR>
>         Go ohm with the puns already....<BR>
><BR>
OK, that's enough now - that's my second keyboard this week.  Put the puns <BR>
down, step away from the puns....<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:30:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: silly traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 3.  I strongly suspect that, if the Rapture hasn't occurred by M:1100<BR>
> (approximately AD 5700), the entire concept of the Rapture would be<BR>
> somewhat discredited.<BR>
<BR>
Want me to start pointing out the potential arguments in favbor of it<BR>
being due in AD 6000?<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, expect a *big* Christian "millenialist" movement around AD<BR>
4000, the logic being that Adam was 4000 years before Christ, so the<BR>
second coming should "logically" be 4000 years *after* Christ. (This is<BR>
by analogy to a currently popular thread of "logic" that goes something<BR>
like: Adam to Abraham = 2000 years, Abraham to Christ = 2000 years,<BR>
therefor Christ to End = 2000 years, along with some logic that says<BR>
Creation to End = 6000 years)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:35:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT?: Sliders (was Re: Ethnic Confusions)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Which brings up an interesting conjecture. Not sure if this is off-topic.<BR>
> For anyone who watches Sliders, do the Kromaggs represent an evolved homo<BR>
> erectus or something else?<BR>
<BR>
The "Kromaggs" represent an evolved "Cro-Magnon" as conceived by a<BR>
typical TV "idiot staffer" who wasn't aware that *we* are "Cro Magnon"<BR>
or near enough as makes no difference. The perpetrator was *probably*<BR>
thinking of Neanderthals. Of course, that's no good either, since once<BR>
you correct for the original "Neanderthal" skeleton being of a man<BR>
suffering from *advanced* arthritis, amomg other things, Neanderthals<BR>
turn out to be *not* all that remarkable looking. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 11:40:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Suggestions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "'030's and '020's"? It is to laugh. Try 68000. At least I think that's<BR>
>> what's in the SE. The SE *30* is the one with a 68030.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, it is not to laugh, it is to wait...and wait...and wait...<BR>
><BR>
> Besides, I forgot....The SE does have a 68000 chip, running at a whopping<BR>
> 16 mhz! (My old Plus runs at 8)<BR>
><BR>
> A while back, the MB died on my PPC, and while I was waiting for a<BR>
> replacment to arrive, I drug out the ol' Mac Plus to at least dial in for<BR>
> e-mail...<BR>
<BR>
Heck, until I get some hardware conflicts sorted out, the SE is the<BR>
only system I can do web browsing on!<BR>
<BR>
> Whew! 'Twas an...interesting experience, to say the least. I went from a<BR>
> 75 mhz 32bit processor, 96 mb RAM,  2 17" monitors at 24 bit color to a 9'<BR>
> B&W screen on a machine with a 40 megabyte HD and 4 Mb of RAM.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm a bit luckier. I've got a 200 meg external HD and a ZIP drive<BR>
on it. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:30:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Mistranslating the Ten Commandments (was Re: Silly Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav ... what if the first translation of the Warrant of<BR>
> Restoration into planet A's native language was mistranslated ... and<BR>
> the Imperium liked the mistranslation better, so they never corrected<BR>
> it. How would planet A react when they discover they're getting<BR>
> screwed (more than other worlds)?<BR>
<BR>
There is a real life parallel to this concept which you can use as a<BR>
resource for such a background.<BR>
<BR>
In New Zealand, we have a document known as the "Waitangi Treaty", in which<BR>
the signatories, who were the "chiefs" of the various Maori tribes<BR>
relinquished their sovereignity to the British Crown in exchange for certain<BR>
guarantees.<BR>
<BR>
This has two versions, the Maori version and the English version.<BR>
<BR>
To be charitable, it is "unclear" if the differences in meaning were<BR>
intentional or just mistranslation, but it has been a bone of contention<BR>
ever since.<BR>
<BR>
There are other discrepancies, such as people signing for tribes who may not<BR>
have had the right to sign for that tribe, and some tribes who are not<BR>
represented at all in the document , and therefore, theoretically have never<BR>
relinquished soveriegnity.<BR>
<BR>
When you take into account the abuses of the treaty over the years (on both<BR>
sides) there are far more interesting events than I have time to recount<BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
The one thintg I would say is that the Treaty was pushed through by the then<BR>
Governor (actually he nmay not have had the title "Governor" at that time)<BR>
in an attempt to put in place a legal framework that would give him an<BR>
excuse to control the abuses of the _settlers_ (such as the two brothers who<BR>
had just "purchased" almost a quarter of the country from a representative<BR>
of one of the tribes.) not as the result of a military campaign on either<BR>
side.<BR>
<BR>
One of the problems was that there were settlers from many different races<BR>
in New Zealand, not all of whom recognzed the right of the British to govern<BR>
here, but once the Treaty had been signed, there was "evidence" of the<BR>
British Crown controlling the country, allowing the governor to act against<BR>
foreign nationals using British law.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, the "Maori Wars", occurred after the treaty.<BR>
<BR>
But we won't go into that, I have a major disagreement with the country's<BR>
"top" historian on that subject, one James Belich, largely because he<BR>
obviously knows nothing of military history, claiming the Maori invented<BR>
"trench warfare" and similar stupidities.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
> in TV and<BR>
> movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see random<BR>
> acts of<BR>
> situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:47:17 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:22:16 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Unless sometime in the 21st century, the Parti Quebecois actually<BR>
> >> succeeds in their separation referendum. The Maritimes, cut off from<BR>
> >> the rest of Canada and with a terrible economic situation, petition<BR>
> >> to join the USA, as do the western provinces....<BR>
> <BR>
> > I can understand the Maritimes petitioning to join the USA, beign cut off<BR>
> > and with a terrible economic situation, but the western provinces? With<BR>
> > an economy as strong as ours, I don't see why we would want to join the<BR>
> > USA. I can see the west going it alone before I can see it joining the US.<BR>
> > (No offence to those of you already *in* the US...)<BR>
> <BR>
> How about them letting the northwestern portion of the US join *them*? :-)<BR>
<BR>
The last time I heard this idea, it involved a combination of all of the<BR>
states and provinces that boarder the Pacific Ocean, with Alberta thrown in<BR>
as well-- once suggested as being possibly the wealthiest non-existant<BR>
"country" of the 20/21 century.<BR>
<BR>
Think of the resources available:  forestry, fishing, mining, oil & natural<BR>
gas, aerospace, tourism, Silicon Valley, Microsoft, Hollywood (North *and*<BR>
South), Doug Berry, etc.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)<BR>
<BR>
"Honk if you've slept with Riker."<BR>
           -- typical Starfleet shuttlecraft bumpersticker<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:56:05 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
<BR>
> I always wondered where the rest of the Royal Navy was, after all they did<BR>
> have more than one iron clad.<BR>
<BR>
Good point, though I suspect that was because it was unneccessary, Wells<BR>
only showed one artillery unit and a calvary unit being destroyed as well,<BR>
not the whole military, one assumes any large scale battle was won by the<BR>
Martians.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the majority of British military might would have been out of<BR>
England at the time, and any fleet units in the area would have been<BR>
involved in a similar battles with tripods at other ports.<BR>
<BR>
That is, assuming they could be crewed and put to sea on time. The whole<BR>
idea of 24-hour readiness for military units not in hostile terrain didn't<BR>
catch on until much later.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:05:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> wrote:<BR>
> Hm. Maybe the US should stop incarcerating so many people.<BR>
<BR>
There are folks "on both sides of the aisle" that would<BR>
agree.<BR>
<BR>
> There are those of us (I'll probably be labelled a liberal by some)<BR>
> who don't think that crime is not caused by gun ownership or the lack<BR>
> thereof but by poverty and excessive social disparity. Correlation<BR>
> is not causation, etc.<BR>
<BR>
It is my belief that it is not poverty or social disparity that<BR>
causes crime, but rather crime that cause poverty and<BR>
social disparity.<BR>
<BR>
> I should probably stop this whole thread for my part right about now<BR>
> before it degrades into a bigger off-topic flame fest than it already<BR>
> is. I understand what you're saying Leonard, but I don't interpret the<BR>
> stats the same way you seem do.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds okay to me.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:07:09 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
<BR>
I might recommend an excellent set of bible study tools<BR>
available from<BR>
http://ianvink.com<BR>
You can get translations that in English (KJV to NASB),<BR>
Greek, Latin, German, Spanish, etc. plus dictionaries,<BR>
commentaries and more.<BR>
<BR>
Ian offers a shareware package that is quite good and<BR>
readily downloadable or available on CD for US$25 or<BR>
so.  He's not really in it for the money, so if you can't<BR>
afford the licence, he will give you one for the asking.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 8:25 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Probably at Project Gutenberg:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.gutenberg.net/<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hey Leonard, where did you get that downloadable bible? What format is<BR>
it<BR>
> > in?  I might find it a handy reference...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Charles C.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:07:17 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT US Gun Control C**P on TML<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:<BR>
> <RANT><BR>
<snip><BR>
> </RANT><BR>
><BR>
> That feels better ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Gosh Dom, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.  :-)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1527<BR>
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